Innovation Interview with Dr. Livingston
The first to mix early vape technology and 5-MeO-DMT
This interview was conducted over an encrypted audio channel between Axle Davids, the founder of The Pattern Project and Dr. Livingston (a pseudonym) in late November 2023.
Axle: The first known recipe for making 5-MeO vape pens was published on Erowid in early 2021. I’m told that you were the inspiration for the idea of using vape pens with Five.
Dr. Livingston: That’s right. My intrigue in altered states of consciousness began when I was 21. It obviously helped that I have a degree in chemistry and work in the medical devices industry. I'm very familiar with inventing, machining and engineering, That's my go-to life skill.
Axle: What was the spark for this innovation?
Dr. Livingston: The starting point was when a friend said, “Well, you know, if you want the ultimate experience, 5-MeO-DMT is where it's at.” They introduced me to the Temple of Awakening Divinity (T.O.A.D.). As someone with a scientific orientation, I appreciated the Temple’s practical and safe approach to experiencing 5-MeO and how they deliberately avoided any formalized dogma.
I had three months in which to wait for my group session at the Temple. In their preparation materials, they referred to 'the Lamp,' a unique vaporization device that was described as an impossible-looking contraption made of brass and glass. Intrigued, I started designing and building my own vaporizer device without even seeing the Lamp.
Finally, in late 2013, I participated in that group ceremony and saw the Lamp for the first time. It was fascinating, and I could immediately see how I could help make it better. Over the next two years, I started creating my own versions, investing about $5,000 in machining parts. I made two of these argon atmosphere piston vaporizers, which I still use to this day for group sessions. My modifications eventually influenced the original maker of the Lamp, who incorporated many of them into their design.
Were vape cartridges and batteries already available at this time?
Not the kind we have today. It was a cottage industry. High-amperage batteries, sub-ohm coils, rebuildable drip atomizers, and other devices were being innovated, mostly in a hot-rod-like culture focused on creating the biggest clouds of nicotine vapour possible. Of course, I was thinking about how these advancements could be applied to 5-MeO-DMT. I don't recall exactly how the idea came to me, but this led me to get my hands on an early vape pen battery and cannabis cartridge made by a company called oPen. They were the first ones to create these breath-activated batteries and disposable cartridges. After removing the cannabis residue, I refilled them with 5-MeO-DMT in a liquid carrier. And that’s how the idea was realized. That was in 2015.
What was your biggest learning during these times?
As much as I love the technology, that first experience with the Temple and subsequent time spent learning and facilitating individuals and groups has reinforced the importance of facilitation and the power of group work. The power of just a few participants holding loving space for the person whose turn it is to do a full-release dose is a very important contribution to the experience.
Axle: How did other people find out about this?
Dr. Livingston: I shared my vape pen learning with Marcus Grail, a fellow Five enthusiast. He then shared it with Grace Within, who published the recipe for making 5-MeO-DMT vape pens on Erowid. From that webpage, the idea has spread and spread. There was initially some resistance that this would remove the sacredness from the medicine or become sullied by recreational usage. But once people try it, they see the benefits outweigh the risks. And fortunately, those fears have not materialized.
Axle: So, was the vape pen everything you hoped it would be?
Dr. Livingston: I’ve explored other methods for delivering 5-MeO. This included experimentation with transdermal applications, insufflation, nebulizers, rectal, and other innovative routes. However, each method had its own set of complexities and limitations, which, for me and the small groups I was working with, continued to make vaporization the most practical approach.
Axle: Has the vape pen replaced the argon atmosphere piston vaporizer you originally came up with?
Dr. Livingston: Yes and no. I still find the argon piston vaporizer ideal with my group practice. The vape pen was driven more by an interest in marrying 5-MeO with other experiences, like being in the forest or by the ocean. For that, a portable format was needed, and the vape pen was perfect.
Axle: At Pattern Project, we’re particularly interested in low-dose applications. Vape pens make that possible.
Dr. Livingston: My personal interest has never really been in microdosing. Instead, I'm a big believer that your first experience with 5-MeO should be that bolt of ego death, that profound moment of awareness that everything is identical to nothing, and maybe, just maybe, consciousness is primary and matter secondary. My group practice has focused on getting that full-release dose right so there is the longest possible period for learning while the ego returns. I call that the “long tail”.
My goal is how do you lengthen that tail? That working space? That is where the greatest teaching and transformational potential exists. This is my personal reason for pursuing pens. The ability to re-dose mid-tail can extend the working space.
Axle: Hmmmm. The full-release experience can be over in just a few minutes. So I can see why having more time to be in that space could have a lot of benefits.
Dr. Livingston: Yes. And with that full-release experienced, I’m most captivated by returning later to what I call a sub-release experience. This is not about achieving the full intensity of a release but rather about experiencing a reminder of that profound moment. This sub-release experience, facilitated by the vape pen, provides a gentle nudge, a reminder of the profound insights gained from past full-release, but now I can marry that reminder with other experiences like being in the forest or by the ocean.
Axle: Yes. I’m fascinated by the idea of pairing the vape pens with other experiences.
Me too. I'm excited to see other people experiment with what I call mixing. I think of Five as light, colourless, and able to be combined with different experiences that add colour. For instance, meditation has its own qualities, and adding Five's horsepower can yield different insights.
Similarly, there are many in the community who believe that cannabis can help extend the tail of the experience, allowing for more learning. Or maybe there are endogenous substances, like the endorphins produced from a runner’s high, that would be well followed by a sub-release dose from a Five vape pen.
Axle: Do you have any concerns about your contribution? Or the expanding presence of 5-MeO vape pens?
Dr. Livingston: Sure. Broadly, there’s a concern that people think dosing is the same with a vape pen. A dose with a vape pen is much stronger than a similar amount of material directly vaporized in a pipe because there is zero waste.
While I’ve generally seen very positive outcomes from the steady popularization of full-release and sub-release protocols and devices, I’ve also seen firsthand how low some people’s lives can sink and worry about what could happen if this medicine were to get married with other self-destructive substances or behaviours like gambling.
Axle: It’s so great to have this new information from you. We will use it to update our Discovery Timeline. Is there any last thought you’d like to leave us with?
Dr. Livingston: Yes. There are people out there who make the case that Five has a long historical usage and lineage or that maybe they are channelling the spirit of the toad or some toad lineage. That’s not me. I believe that this is a medicine discovered in the West, and there’s a wonderful opportunity for the West to develop its own lineage around Five. It is a time for massive experimentation and learning, which is so exciting. It is time for us to claim our agency that this is medicine that is here for us now. The question is, how will we most fruitfully use it?
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This interview is a treasure! Vaped 5-MEO is less than 10 years old, thanks to Dr. Livingston's pioneering work.
My only experience with vape pens has been at sublease doses, even with a one-to-one pen. Yet Dr. Livingston emphasizes a full release for the first time. I would be curious to know his protocol for full release with the pens, or if he only uses pens for subsequent sub–release experiences. I mean, I would probably use that argon piston if I had one too!
Kudos to the good doctor, the pens are a very important part of my life today.